Posts by jonathan dough

115

Angel Eye needs an education on the identity and nature of Christ

by jonathan dough in

angel eye wrote:.

john 14 v 1 shows jesus and jehovah are not 1.. acts 2 v 4 and 17 clearly show the holy spirit isnt a person,its gods active force.. john 14 v 28 is total proof,otherwise jesus would clearly be insane saying such things .

toomany scriptures to prove it...but just a few for you to recall,i guess its hard when your reading false claims to remember the truth.. .

jonathan dough

Nowhere does it state that Jesus is God, nor does the Trinity state that Jesus is God THE Father

Not true. Isaiah 9:6 (NWT) provides "For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be on his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace." The child born is named Eternal Father. Not the creature, but the divine person who assumed a human nature.

You are making the same mistake AE is by not distinguishing the God-man of the hypostatic union or understanding the difference between economic and immanent Trinity. The creature, Jesus, is not the Almighty. The created humanity of Jesus is not the Almighty. The Word, however, is referred to as God at John 1:1 but I prefer to view that as a conclusion drawn after putting all other verses into context, which is what the JWs ultimately argue. Your analysis needs to go deeper. Start here if you want to discuss the Jesus is God issue of trinitarianism. The proof is very extensive, but you will never understand it if you don't take the time to read up on it and understand what mainstream Christian theology teaches. These aren't my arguments. You might be surprised at what you will learn.

http://www.144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-5.html#20

The amount of evidence that the Word was and is God the Son is staggering. Look here, I fell for that JW line of Arianism until I took the time to read up on it. I was shocked to discover how wrong the JWs are on this point.

115

Angel Eye needs an education on the identity and nature of Christ

by jonathan dough in

angel eye wrote:.

john 14 v 1 shows jesus and jehovah are not 1.. acts 2 v 4 and 17 clearly show the holy spirit isnt a person,its gods active force.. john 14 v 28 is total proof,otherwise jesus would clearly be insane saying such things .

toomany scriptures to prove it...but just a few for you to recall,i guess its hard when your reading false claims to remember the truth.. .

jonathan dough

and assuming you are 100% correct in your understanding. None of us are 100% when it comes to God as imperfect humans.

The rest of your comment is of self-defensive emotional reaction trying to invoke debate or agrument in order to gain some sense of justification which I shall not afford you as I know my own imperfection and it is fruitless to your alleged 'wanting to discuss trinity".

Reason with others dear Jonathan don't cause them to become defensive.

Hold on, now. I never "assumed I was 100% correct in my understanding," and even if I did that is my perogative. In this particular instance I do feel that I'm 100 percent correct in my belief based upon proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Isn't there anything in your interpretation of scripture and/or life that you are certain about? Come on, of course there is. Furthermore, it is not necessary to be 100% certain about something to believe it. People are sent to the death chamber all the time on "proof beyond a reasonable doubt," far short of 100 percent certainty. 80 percent? 90 percent? There is a time and place not to equivocate. I am not denying my flaws and imperfections, but that cannot be the basis of my not understanding something. Paul was certain about some things, absolutely certain, and he was imperfect. It is in large part about weighing the evidence, but that is something the anti-trinitarians don't seem to want to do.

Mine isn't an emotional response, it's a logical response even if it draws out your emotions. Neither is it a defensive knee-jerk reaction. You are the one doing the attacking, remember? Mine was a reaction, a response. I'm just trying to set the record straight as to what the Trinity doctrine teaches, and how the Society has distorted that theory and mislead people into believing that the doctrine of the Trinity stands for something it does not. This isn't child's play or an academic exercise. The stakes are too high and the time short.

http://www.144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-6.html#31

115

Angel Eye needs an education on the identity and nature of Christ

by jonathan dough in

angel eye wrote:.

john 14 v 1 shows jesus and jehovah are not 1.. acts 2 v 4 and 17 clearly show the holy spirit isnt a person,its gods active force.. john 14 v 28 is total proof,otherwise jesus would clearly be insane saying such things .

toomany scriptures to prove it...but just a few for you to recall,i guess its hard when your reading false claims to remember the truth.. .

jonathan dough

please show greater mildness next time in imitation of OUR savior.

And I would suggest you educate yourself a bit by reading what I have written on the topic before your criticize me instead of assuming something you might be confused about. The Reasoning Book in relevant part is covered in detail in those pages. With respect to Christ's mildness you also might try and read Scripture a bit closer. This was someone who assaulted people with a whip of ropes and repeatedly gave false teachers a thorough tongue lashing which they deserved, calling them hypocrites, etc. Christ was not one dimensional so please don't moralize to me about how to imitate Him. I suspect He would disapprove of you pandering to the Arians. As far as picking on Angel Eyes, it is never meant personally, and there is absolutely no difference in what I have done and what you and others have done. One side makes a point and I respond. It is a far cry from persecution. If you cared about her you would want her to have a thorough grasp of some fundamental truth. She's smart. She just has to be pointed in the right direction.

The issue isn't divinity but co-equal/co-eternal.....

You are apparantly confused. These two aspects/issues are subsumed by the notion of divinity. Christ's divinity in the Trinitarian sense is to be co-equal and co-eternal, among other things. It is irrelevant that the JWs have invented their own definition of divinity when it comes to defining the Trinity doctrine. And as far as "my" intelligence is concerned, these aren't my theories or theology but the Catholic and Protestant theologians from times past.

http://www.144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-5.html#20

115

Angel Eye needs an education on the identity and nature of Christ

by jonathan dough in

angel eye wrote:.

john 14 v 1 shows jesus and jehovah are not 1.. acts 2 v 4 and 17 clearly show the holy spirit isnt a person,its gods active force.. john 14 v 28 is total proof,otherwise jesus would clearly be insane saying such things .

toomany scriptures to prove it...but just a few for you to recall,i guess its hard when your reading false claims to remember the truth.. .

jonathan dough

go with God and let the Arians do the same without making it a stumbling stone that causes divisions within the body of Christ

Again, I must disagree. The Church at Nicaea I didn't let the heretical Arians "go with God." They put them in their place and in the process did not cause any stumbling blocks within the body of Christ. I'm obligated to do the same. We are obligated to fight for the truth.

115

Angel Eye needs an education on the identity and nature of Christ

by jonathan dough in

angel eye wrote:.

john 14 v 1 shows jesus and jehovah are not 1.. acts 2 v 4 and 17 clearly show the holy spirit isnt a person,its gods active force.. john 14 v 28 is total proof,otherwise jesus would clearly be insane saying such things .

toomany scriptures to prove it...but just a few for you to recall,i guess its hard when your reading false claims to remember the truth.. .

jonathan dough

The Trinity debate is a stalemate corner because both sides offer up scriptures as 'proof' and are equally committed theologically to a concept that cannot be settled by us humans.

I disagree. I think it can be settled. It is not just a matter of pointing to proof texts, but using logic to understand them, compare them and the mountains of theological study over time that supports the Trinity doctrine. Objectively, it is anything but a stalemate. The proof is overwhelming. But the main point I was making earlier was to illustrate the deception that is being perpetuated by the Society by teaching a Trinity that is not the Trinity doctrine. That is the lie I'm trying to undue.

115

Angel Eye needs an education on the identity and nature of Christ

by jonathan dough in

angel eye wrote:.

john 14 v 1 shows jesus and jehovah are not 1.. acts 2 v 4 and 17 clearly show the holy spirit isnt a person,its gods active force.. john 14 v 28 is total proof,otherwise jesus would clearly be insane saying such things .

toomany scriptures to prove it...but just a few for you to recall,i guess its hard when your reading false claims to remember the truth.. .

jonathan dough

Editing to reflect Jonathan's above response which was being posted while I was responding to another comment..

Are you really in Syria right now?

115

Angel Eye needs an education on the identity and nature of Christ

by jonathan dough in

angel eye wrote:.

john 14 v 1 shows jesus and jehovah are not 1.. acts 2 v 4 and 17 clearly show the holy spirit isnt a person,its gods active force.. john 14 v 28 is total proof,otherwise jesus would clearly be insane saying such things .

toomany scriptures to prove it...but just a few for you to recall,i guess its hard when your reading false claims to remember the truth.. .

jonathan dough

The mentioning of 1914 is far more tangling then rambling on about 607......JWs eyes start to glass over as taught by the WTS when 607 is challenged.

I was not trying to divert this topic but offering a better area to begin chipping away at the WTS grip via it's falsehoods. The Trinity debate is a stalemate corner because both sides offer up scriptures as 'proof' and are equally committed theologically to a concept that cannot be settled by us humans.

Yes Trinity is a turn-off for many Arians exiting the WTS, but it wouldn't be if Trinitarians were more willing to accept us instead of insisting your POV is the only POV (similar to the WTS I might add).

Well, I can't separate 607 from 1914. I spent too much time researching and writing about that issue, but I do agree that their eyes glass over at the mention of it. It is boring and numerical and probably a bit over some of their heads. That is why I prefer to begin with the Trinity doctrine or the 144,000. Easier to grasp. My point with the Trinity doctrine is to give it a fair hearing and set the record straight. It is not just me talking. Catholics and Protestants are united in this. And, I have yet to see them deal with proof texts all that much. Not recently, at least, perhaps buried in these threads somewhere. There are too many texts that just have not been touched on and avoided. I'm within my rights I think. And all I did was respond to three of hers.

115

Angel Eye needs an education on the identity and nature of Christ

by jonathan dough in

angel eye wrote:.

john 14 v 1 shows jesus and jehovah are not 1.. acts 2 v 4 and 17 clearly show the holy spirit isnt a person,its gods active force.. john 14 v 28 is total proof,otherwise jesus would clearly be insane saying such things .

toomany scriptures to prove it...but just a few for you to recall,i guess its hard when your reading false claims to remember the truth.. .

jonathan dough

Was that your intent? I thought it was to call out and bully one poster specifically?

Maybe you should go back and read the initial post. This isn't bullying, believe me. She is the one who made the allegations, and I responded. Don't read too much into that, please. She is a big girl. If she wants to insult my intelligence and motives she ought to be prepared to defend it.

115

Angel Eye needs an education on the identity and nature of Christ

by jonathan dough in

angel eye wrote:.

john 14 v 1 shows jesus and jehovah are not 1.. acts 2 v 4 and 17 clearly show the holy spirit isnt a person,its gods active force.. john 14 v 28 is total proof,otherwise jesus would clearly be insane saying such things .

toomany scriptures to prove it...but just a few for you to recall,i guess its hard when your reading false claims to remember the truth.. .

jonathan dough

Jonathan, sorry most of us are not interested in what you have to say.

I really don't think you represent the hundreds of people reading these threads; some, yes, but not all of them. And if you aren't interested, why are you even reading this?

115

Angel Eye needs an education on the identity and nature of Christ

by jonathan dough in

angel eye wrote:.

john 14 v 1 shows jesus and jehovah are not 1.. acts 2 v 4 and 17 clearly show the holy spirit isnt a person,its gods active force.. john 14 v 28 is total proof,otherwise jesus would clearly be insane saying such things .

toomany scriptures to prove it...but just a few for you to recall,i guess its hard when your reading false claims to remember the truth.. .

jonathan dough

But seeing how both INTERPRETATIONS are not requirements for salvation

I'm not sure I agree with that at all, for Christ said, and I paraphrase, "If you do not believe that I AM you will die in your sins." And, a true believer must confess that "Jesus is Lord." Christ took the name of the Almighty "I AM," and "Lord" is meant in the higher divine sense, that He is Lord and God. One must confess and believe in His Divinity.

http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-5.html#20